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About If All Else Fails

Far-right extremism is thriving in small, rural communities across the country, gaining the support of mainstream voters and local law enforcement. In this podcast from North Country Public Radio, reporters Emily Russell and Zach Hirsch investigate extremist groups and militia movements in northern New York State, why they’re drawing support, and what kinds of threats they pose at a pivotal moment for democracy in the United States. This story is part of a series on far-right extremism called ‘If All Else Fails.’

All episodes available now at NCPR.

We investigated the far-right in the North Country. Here’s what we found

By Emily Russell and Zach Hirsch. NCPR

DAVID SOMMERSTEIN: So you two spent months investigating far-right extremism in Upstate New York and I want to dive into what you found, but before that, let’s talk about how you two got into this story.

EMILY RUSSELL: Yeah, so Zach and I have spent years covering politics in Upstate New York. This is a part of the state that’s very rural and has become increasingly conservative. That’s a trend we’ve seen in other rural areas around the country. But most of our reporting focused more on mainstream politics, the shift to the right we’ve seen among politicians who represent our region and the shift we’ve seen among voters.

ZACH HIRSCH: And I think the thing that we hadn’t done yet was really dive into the far-right side of politics here. We’re not just talking about people with very conservative views, we’re talking about people and groups who are anti-government or extremist. So this reporting was really focused on ideologies that threaten violence or push the country towards authoritarianism. And we should be clear - while a lot of these ideas are becoming more mainstream, the people openly calling for violence are a slim minority. And I just want to say, this was challenging reporting. It’s hard to find sources and information on these groups. You know, after Jan. 6, some groups disbanded or went underground. People seem less likely now to chat and organize on major social media sites. And many people on the far right just didn’t want to talk to reporters like us.

SOMMERSTEIN: So how did you go about finding sources and figuring out what the far-right landscape in Upstate New York is all about?

HIRSCH: Well we traveled around the region. We talked to voters, to business owners, law enforcement. And we also just drove around, looking at lawn signs and flags people fly, looking at bumper stickers and taking note of the far-right symbols that people put on display.

RUSSELL: And once you kind of know what to look for, you start noticing those far-right symbols more. And of course, we talked to a lot of experts, both from here in Upstate and national experts on extremism. We interviewed an FBI agent and the top security official in New York. And then we also relied on some of the pretty extensive reporting that other journalists have done on the far-right over the years.

SOMMERSTEIN: So, what did you find? And how is far-right extremism different here in Upstate New York than in other parts of rural America?

RUSSELL: Well, this is interesting. Extremist groups gain traction over different issues in different parts of the country. So, in parts of the South, white nationalism has come into the spotlight in response to Confederate statues coming down. That’s what sparked the 2017 Unite the Right rally in Charlottesville. In states along the southern border like Texas, there are militia groups that are anti-immigrant. But here in New York, what we found was that guns were kind of the main focus of the far-right movement.

HIRSCH: Yeah and we’ve seen that really on the rise in the last decade. A new gun control measure was passed in New York back in 2013, known as the SAFE Act. Today, being against the SAFE Act and being pro-gun rights is mainstream in Upstate New York. What we saw was in some cases was that legitimate disagreements over gun control kind of morphed into something else. It was a catalyst for anti-government groups and threats of violence. Conspiracy theories. And that’s the kind of activity that worries the FBI and counter-terrorism officials. And to this day, Second Amendment arguments seem to have gained the most traction for the far right. People have used the gun rights issue as a recruitment tool for militias, as a way to say, ‘Hey, your government is trying to take this right away from you. What are you going to do about it?’

SOMMERSTEIN: So, Emily, you mentioned racism and how ideas like white supremacy are part of far-right ideologies in other parts of the country. What about here in Upstate New York?

RUSSELL: One thing we struggled with during our reporting was not having any real way to know how widespread a certain belief is. Like, we can drive around and count how many Confederate flags we see around Upstate New York, or talk to locals and experts about what they’re seeing, but there’s just no way to know what’s motivating individual people on the far-right. What we can say is that here in Upstate New York, it appears that far-right groups and militias and ideologies are more focused on gun rights and an anti-government ideology than overt white supremacy.

HIRSCH: But here’s the thing— even if it’s not overt racism, a lot of these groups overlap, and those lines aren’t always so clear. Especially when you think about the historical roots. The constitutional sheriffs’ movement was started by a white supremacist in the 70s, who believed county sheriffs should form posses and basically lynch people. Today, the CEO of the main group in that movement is a talk show host who props up white nationalists and neo-Confederates. In Upstate New York, there’s also the more in-your-face kind of racism too. Ku Klux Klan flyers have surfaced in recent years. The Proud Boys have also tried to recruit here. They deny they’re racist, but experts consider them a hate group.

SOMMERSTEIN: So this series has a pretty narrow focus on far-right extremism. Why focus so much on the right?

RUSSELL: Well experts told us that’s where a majority of the violence is coming from. And actually, one bit of pushback we heard over and again when reporting on far-right extremism is - well, what about far-left extremism? What about Black Lives Matter? People, including law enforcement here, incorrectly claim that that movement has been more violent than the far-right. But that’s simply not true. That’s a movement to protest the police killings of innocent Black people, and it’s been an overwhelmingly peaceful movement.

HIRSCH: We talked with Jackie Bray about that kind of pushback. Bray leads New York’s Division of Homeland Security and Emergency Services.

“The truth is that when we look at the facts, we see far more violent extremism and violent extremism that leads to death from racially and ethnically motivated violent extremists in the white supremacist and the neo-Nazi groups,” said Bray. “Those are just facts, we don’t see anywhere near that, from groups like Black Lives Matter, it’s not in the same category of groups.”

SOMMERSTEIN: We’re officially in a presidential election year. It could very well be a rematch between Joe Biden and Donald Trump. What did you guys find when you talked to people for the podcast about the election?

HIRSCH: There’s a real sense of anxiety from people. I think Jan. 6 was a wake-up call for a lot of folks, knowing that people can be pushed to their limits to defend their beliefs. Some experts say the lack of violence during the 2022 midterms was a good sign, but again I think a lot of people are on edge heading into November. We talked to one woman from the town of Moreau, NY. Her name is Beth Wadleigh. She’s worried things could turn violent. She’s pretty far to the left. She feels like the government is broken, and doesn’t think Democrats are necessarily gonna save the day here.

“I hope I’m wrong, but I just think we’re headed towards some kind of civil, civil movement unrest,” said Wadleigh. “Maybe not full-on war, but there’s definitely going to be a reckoning. I don’t - I don’t know when, but I feel like it’ll be soon.”

RUSSELL: And an interesting thing is that what Beth Wadleigh said echoes what people on the other end of the political spectrum told us. One of those people was James Bonet from Episode 4, remember he was part of the January 6th attack on the Capitol. Here’s what he told us.

“I think Trump will win and that’s when I think that they’re going to try starting World War Three,” said Bonet.

HIRSCH: The ‘they’ that Bonet is talking about is the Biden administration. And then there’s Sheriff Mike Carpinelli from Episode 2, who says, “If all else fails, then we know what we have to do. [...] But I don’t think [...] that we’re there yet.” We’d love to ask Carpinelli what that means. He hasn’t returned our calls and emails. But the point is, people across the political spectrum appear to be thinking in terms of a reckoning or some kind of violence - and that is not good.

SOMMERSTEIN: A lot of this podcast is about radicalization as a tool for recruitment among far-right groups. What’s being done to push back or prevent people from getting radicalized?

HIRSCH: There are agencies and experts who are really focused on that and the key is to prevent someone from going down the rabbit hole in the first place. We heard that deradicalizing or deprogramming someone after the fact is so much harder.

RUSSELL: One of the places leading that effort on the national level is the Polarization & Extremism Research and Innovation Lab at American University. Pete Kurtz-Glovas is from that lab and says they’re really focused on preventing radicalization, starting at the community level.

“If we start to take a public health approach to these kinds of issues, then you actually face a real opportunity to prevent folks from falling down these conspiratorial rabbit holes, because they are in better-connected communities,” said Kurtz-Glovas. “They know their neighbors, people can recognize when folks are maybe starting to spend too much time online or too much time consuming conspiratorial content.”

SOMMERSTEIN: As we wrap up the podcast, what do you want people to take away from your reporting?

HIRSCH: I think one important thing to emphasize is that there are dots that connect a lot of what may seem like separate factions of the far right. So, our series mentions the KKK, anti-government militias, constitutional sheriffs, anti-immigrant groups. There is a thread that runs through all of these. It’s about authoritarian control - and also, who this country is really for. Who “we the people” are. And often, that vision of the country is deeply Christian, deeply white.

RUSSELL: We say this throughout the series, but it’s worth mentioning again- physical violence from far-right extremism appears to be pretty rare in Upstate New York. But as we’ve seen in the past, with the [2022] racist mass shooting in Buffalo, just one person who’s been radicalized can do tremendous damage. And looking at January 6th, just a handful of people from the North Country that we know of took part in that day, and dozens more from other parts of New York. If you take just a handful of people from every region around the country, suddenly you have a mob of thousands that can threaten the political system and democracy in the United States.

This reporting is part of a podcast on far-right extremism in Upstate New York called ‘If All Else Fails.’ The show received grant support from Grist and the Center for Rural Strategies. The artwork for the podcast was designed by Dan Cash.