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About If All Else Fails

Far-right extremism is thriving in small, rural communities across the country, gaining the support of mainstream voters and local law enforcement. In this podcast from North Country Public Radio, reporters Emily Russell and Zach Hirsch investigate extremist groups and militia movements in northern New York State, why they’re drawing support, and what kinds of threats they pose at a pivotal moment for democracy in the United States. This story is part of a series on far-right extremism called ‘If All Else Fails.’

All episodes available now at NCPR.

New York’s Top Security Official on the Threat of Domestic Extremism

By Emily Russell and Zach Hirsch. NCPR

This interview is part of a podcast on far-right extremism called ‘If All Else Fails.’ The excerpt has been edited for clarity.

New York State is seeing an “incredible rise” in hate-filled violence and intimidation. That’s according to Jackie Bray, the commissioner of New York’s Division of Homeland Security and Emergency Services. In this interview, Bray talks about the nature of far-right extremism in New York, which groups are active in the state, and what role New Yorkers have in preventing the spread of violent extremism.

JACKIE BRAY: We look at online extremist activity every month and New York State, this is not where you want to be in the top, but New York State ranks in the top five across the country for online extremist activity almost every month. In 2020, I believe was the year that we came in only second to California in terms of domestic extremist incidents. And so we have significant domestic extremist activity across the state. We are looking at online patterns and online trends every single month. For example, this activity often really mirrors what’s going on in the press. We saw like 170% spike in extremist activity, targeting LGBTQ New Yorkers after the [2023] Tennessee shooting. We’ve seen a significant increase in [online] extremist activity targeting black New Yorkers after certain news events, we often see a spike targeting law enforcement or targeting elected officials depending on what’s going on in the press.

ZACH HIRSCH: Over this past summer, the Proud Boys marched in the streets around Saratoga Springs, New York. In Ballston Spa, there was a queer business owner who said she was the main target of a Proud Boys march. How does something like that fit in with the work that you’re doing on domestic terrorism prevention?

BRAY: So let me say that we are seeing this incredible rise in hate-filled violence and hate-filled vandalism and hate-filled intimidation and what we think we have to do to stop that is- one, we have to absolutely prosecute to the fullest extent, criminal acts. If people are doing things criminally, we have to make sure that we bring the full weight of New York’s justice system down. But number two, so much of this are things that end up being largely protected by the First Amendment. You know, it is legal to march in a town and as much as I am repulsed by people’s hate and repulsed by white supremacy and repulsed by challenges, aggressive challenges to the rule of law, as long as that’s not violent, that is often legal. And what our job is, is to make sure we have the tools and the tactics in place to interrupt before violence happens. Threat assessment and management teams work to help us do that, even before something has been triggered where law enforcement can be the right response.

HIRSCH: Commissioner, many people in law enforcement are politically conservative and might feel some level of sympathy for a group like the Proud Boys are the Oath Keepers, which actively recruits veterans and police. How concerned are you about extremism within law enforcement?

BRAY: Very, full stop. We know that domestic extremists and organizations- the Oath Keepers, the Proud Boys, the Three Percenters, the Bugaloo Boys- recruit in former military and in active law enforcement, and retired law enforcement and it is incredibly concerning to me, the fact we not only see that across the nation, but we certainly have instances of that here in New York State. I think that it is incumbent upon our law enforcement agencies to recognize how deleterious, how undermining to trust between law enforcement and community, allowing people who are members of those organizations within our ranks is and has been, is, will be, and I think New Yorkers should be aware that that is a tactic of these groups, to recruit in law enforcement and former military and that we’re gonna have to take some action to protect our law enforcement from that.

EMILY RUSSELL: We’ve interviewed folks about the far-right movement and violent extremism here in the North Country. And a response we hear sometimes is that the Black Lives Matter movement is more violent and more disruptive and that there’s too much focus on the far-right, and that’s unfair. What would you say to that?

BRAY: That’s factually not true. The FBI and the Department of Homeland Security for the two previous administrations, so both in the Trump administration and in the Biden administration, have been consistent that white supremacist, violent extremism is the greatest terrorist threat to the United States, and that holds for New York, too. While there has been an undermining of the sort of broad acceptance of institutional information, the truth is that when we look at the facts, we see far more violent extremism and violent extremism that leads to death from racially and ethnically motivated violent extremists in the white supremacist and the neo-Nazi groups. Those are just facts, we don’t see anywhere near that from groups like Black Lives Matter, it’s not in the same category of groups. That doesn’t mean that we don’t look across the political spectrum for extremist activity, but we have to be clear-eyed and honest about where most of that violence is coming from. And right now, most of that violence is coming from white supremacist, anti-government, anti-semitic, right-wing extremists, I would not be doing my job. If I wasn’t honest with New Yorkers about the actual facts. And those facts.

RUSSELL: Why do you think that the Black Lives Matter movement is the focus of those kinds of responses from folks?

BRAY: Racism. You know, our original sin in this country is that of white supremacy. This country was founded on the backs of Black Americans, enslaved people, with land stolen from indigenous Americans and that legacy persists. As a white American myself, I have to own up to that, I have to acknowledge that. Far too many white Americans see Black protests as threatening, without any evidence that is actually threatening or actually violent. And that’s a legacy of racism.

HIRSCH: Dozens of New Yorkers have been charged for their role in the January 6th attack on the US Capitol. We interviewed one of them, who served three months in prison, and he is now even firmer in his beliefs that the 2020 election was stolen, and that there’s a deep state. How concerned should we be about more political violence leading up to the next presidential election?

BRAY: US elections are safe, and they’re secure and it is incredibly important for our democracy, that we all go out and vote. And I think that obviously threats of violence around the election undermine our democracy, they are designed specifically to undermine people’s confidence in the vote. And the most important thing for all of us to do as Americans who care deeply about American values and American freedoms and American liberty is to go out and vote, and not be intimidated by threats of political violence. I am confident that in New York State, we have the resources and the plans, and the coordination, we need to make sure that our elections are safe, that our elections are safe from a cyber perspective, that our elections are safe from a physical perspective. But obviously, the fact that we even have to have this conversation in this country in this day, is heartbreaking. And is designed by people who would prefer autocratic and authoritarian government to suppress our vote. And I think New Yorkers won’t let that happen and I’m confident that our elections will be safe this year.

RUSSELL: Knowing that there is online extremism activity in New York and that flyers are going up in the North Country, that there are groups here that are active and public in a way. What message would you have to people who live in this area? Is there anything that that folks in the north country should be doing should be looking out for? What role does the public have to play in this moment?

BRAY: That’s such a great question, I’m so glad you asked it. I think two things. I think the first thing is that we all have to realize that we are in this moment of increasing hate and extremism, and every single one of us has a role to play. Your role might be to challenge that hate at the dinner table, or to challenge it out at the bar with your colleagues after work. Your role might be to say, ‘Hey, you know what, Uncle Joe, that’s not a funny joke,’ right? Or, ‘Hey, you know what, no, actually, that’s not a normal thing to say.’ But we all can play a role and simply challenging the speech. Simply saying, ‘I don’t believe that. And that’s not cool with me,’ is an important way to reassert the norms in this country to reassert that hate really has no place here. And then the second thing I want people to know is that you should not be a bystander to someone radicalizing in your own circle of loved ones.

If you have a kid who is online and is going down rabbit holes, and then is saying stuff at the dinner table that you know you didn’t teach him or you know you didn’t teach her- it’s almost always a him- but you know, that you didn’t teach them. If you have a student in your class, if you have a cousin or a parent that you feel like has been radicalized over the last several years, and you’re worried about, there are ways to seek help. There are ways to get the tools that you need to intervene. You do not have to be a bystander watching family members radicalized regardless of the ideology, right? It’s not about ideology. It’s about the fact that we live in a multiracial, pluralistic, democratic society that is worth fighting for. And fundamentalism of any type that leads to violence is a threat to that and we don’t have to be bystanders. We don’t have to be bystanders in our communities. We don’t have to be bystanders in our families.

This reporting is part of a podcast on far-right extremism in Upstate New York called ‘If All Else Fails.’ The show received grant support from Grist and the Center for Rural Strategies. The artwork for the podcast was designed by Dan Cash.